why should I believe you over the spiritual experiences I've had?

That's what really counts. Our inner experience and intuition, and our 'inner sight', is what it's all about.

Define the thing you think I don't believe in

God is Spirit. But before you can be expected to believe in a God that is Spirit, you must first come to believe in your own spirit. Are you a spiritual being, or are you nothing more than a bundle of inanimate dust? Once you become a bit clearer on who you really are, at a deeper level, your eyes become more opened to the reality of God, who, (like our inner-self), is Spirit, which is invisible to our mortal senses.

You'll awaken to the Truth of God when you're ready, and not before. In the meantime, you're exactly where you're meant to be, in terms of your own evolution. It's certainly not a ‘bad’ thing to be an atheist, even from a religious point of view. (It actually took the highest form of innovation and intelligence for God to place us in a realm where it’s actually possible for us to believe that we are “accidents”, that there is no purpose to life, and that God doesn’t really exist. Atheism is the result of pure genius, at a divine level.) Deep down, our souls needed to know what it feels like to feel “purposelessness”, “insecurity”, “doubt”, etc, all of which are incoherent in Heaven, our real Home, but all of which are necessary to experience the full scope of wisdom, which is to be digested by the soul and transformed into positive learning. How can we know “good” without first tasting the fruits of “evil”? How can we fully appreciate security and love, without first experiencing insecurity and a sense of purposeless?

Goodness, security, joy, truth and love is our real heritage. And deep down, we already know this. Some of us just prefer being fast asleep, and like to turn a blind eye to life's deeper realities.

You wished for material things. That is telling upon itself.

That's so true

Why would anyone want to become an atheist? What is there to be gained? Gee, we would win a sense of having no purpose or hope. We would get to see life as random floating around on a sea of chaos only to blink out of existance at any moment. Yay! Who wouldn't be lining up for that great prize?!

I don't think people tend to 'try' to be atheist. I think it is the result of a lack of inspiration toward any kind of faith. I can understand it especially if you are a creature that functions on logic alone.

Not getting something you repeatedly pray for might be proof in your book that God doesn't exist but it surely doesn't qualify as proof for most.

Well not withstanding a serious change in proof, Bakerstreet and I will never agree on a definition of Atheism.

Atheism Info

Jilluser, people become atheists because atheism has some attractive phillosophy. The attraction is mostly about being in line with the world. Something Christianity is against.

And what I mean by the world, I mean real life.

Atheists (not withstanding baker's religion) want to align their beliefs with reason in which science is usually included. And they respect logict. It is NOT possible to prove a negative. And we can refer to God as the Invisible Pink Unicorn. You can prove God doesn't exist as easily as you can prove the IPU doesn't exist. The two are equally nonsensical beings that are equally provable and equally disprovable.

If your interested I am sure you can do a search on Infidels.org and peer into it.
Another good forum is "Ethical Atheist"

The two are equally nonsensical beings that are equally provable and equally disprovable.

I totally disagree. I would love to see how you 'prove' or 'disprove' either. You can't. I think you are seriously misguided. I don't know what you think "being in line with the world" gets you.

I certainly can't believe God exists. I believe there is a God but I'm not sure. I'm not christian but I would take no pleasure in being atheist. I don't understand anyone really 'wanting' to prove that when we die we are just worm food. What joy is there in that? I guess my 'faith' is based on hope. I haven't been proven otherwise either way.

It seems like there are two different atheists here. I see Fox saying "There is no God," with certainty and a high hand to God and I see Jill saying "I don't believe there is a God, I simply lack belief."

Why don't you believe? What would be stopping you from taking that step of faith?

I guess the question you have to ask yourself is: which religion are you going to choose. Because you enjoy Faith because of Hope, then you obviously want faith.

You could make up your own religion and believe whatever you want. Or you can follow someone and learn from some other religious "fanatic" I mean person.

That is a personal choice. However if your after freedom from problems like Guilt, and Fear of things that may exists because of your exercisation of faith like HELL, then I would look up atheism. It is the most reasonable position to take. Some are against reason, and that is an opinion you could side with. And if you do, how far will you go with that decision. Would you listen to the ramblings of a street person, and go Kill for your God if he ordered you to?

There are many advantages of taking the atheist phillosphy seriously. And few advantages of taking a "Faith based" phillosophy seriously.
You can still be spiritual and be an Atheist. Spirituallity is a state of mind, not a state of "belief system in godditit".

If your asking why I talk about atheism, its simply because I think it is imortant to educate others on what atheism is rather than what it is not.

And your right, God hasn't been proven right. : Repeat: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE. It is a logical fact. So why do believers insist on asking unbelievers to prove their God doesn't exist. It goes back to the burden of proof. (if you want to use science as the way to believe in God).

However you can use faith to believe in many things. Man on Venus. Space creatures from the sea. Giant land octopuses that disapear when you peer in their direction.
I could name an infinit number of things you could believe in based on Faith. And I am sure you would enjoy yourself while doing so.

Regards,
Fox

I see Jill saying "I don't believe there is a God, I simply lack belief."

Sorry, meant to say "I certainly can't "prove" there is a God". I went on to say I 'believe' there is a God but am not sure. That doesn't make me an atheist. Atheists state there is no God. I have a feeling there is but am unsure.

Which kind of atheist are you refering.

Atheists don't necessarily state "there is no God". Atheists (most of them) say they don't believe (use faith) that God exists.
I put the link up there for ya in case you are interested.

Some atheist will say "That God your talking about "doesn't exists" " because it Contradicts itself and Contradictions necessarility make that particular assumption incorrect.

I can say "I know the Christian" God doesn't exist. I can say "The Man in the Sky" doesn't exist. I think before you can say a God doesn't exist, you would have to define God.
If we can't define God, then why would we want to say "that which can't be defined" doesn't exist.

There are many things that can't be define that do exist. And they most likely can't be defined, because they haven't been discovered yet.

I will say I hold no belief in God and have no reason to. (that is the definition of a weak atheist). And that is the position I hold which I have provided a complete explaination.
No offense to KFC, but he only uses Faith based ideas to explain things that he has faith in. Unfortunatly that isn't good enough for me, and for many others that hold my position.

Talk soon,
Fox

And your right, God hasn't been proven right. : Repeat: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE A NEGATIVE. It is a logical fact.

Exactly. That is why your comment about being able to prove or disprove God or pink unicorns didn't make any sense.
You are also correct that people can have faith in anything they want to. Yes, I WANT hope. I WANT to believe there is much more to life and after that we don't have capability of knowing yet. I think it is equally arrogant to claim you know the answers as it is to state their simply is nothing other than what we currently know.

Our logic and the information we are currently able to process with it can only take us so far. At some point noone can explain how something came from nothing. Noone has the answer to that.

A don't have faith in any organized religion. That does not make me an atheist. That makes me a hopeful, optimistic, reasonable, logical person who is keeping her mind and heart open to possibilities that might not have presented themselves yet.

If your asking why I talk about atheism

I certainly don't question why you would talk about atheism. You have every right. I don't however see how you can claim there are more benefits to not believing than there are in believing. Also, having faith in there being a God doesn't mean you have to choose a religion. I can believe in a creator. I can believe my creator owes me nothing and that I can pray to my creator if it makes me feel better. I can believe that God set things in motion and left us to our own devices. I can also believe in God without believing in Heaven or Hell.

Fox, I think you are interjecting too many christian ideals into your arguement for or against faith of any kind. I am not christian but I can certainly appreciate the appeal of believing that someone is always watching out for you. Someone up there is loving you and will provide you with a wonderful afterlife. I don't see any downside to that.

I see the appeal of atheism over fire and brimstone based beliefs but those aren't the only two options.

Why don't you believe? What would be stopping you from taking that step of faith?

This is like asking someone why they aren't in love with someone. If it isn't there, it can't be forced. KFC, you are compelled to have faith in christianity. I am compelled to have faith in God (meaning a creator). Some people just don't have a 'feeling' at all regarding God.

From your link:

"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings."

So unless you believe that some people are just mentally incapable of belief due to some physical defect, you have to accept that the Atheist weighs the information given him or her and decides which to BELIEVE. Atheism isn't a belief in God, but it most certainly is a belief system, and an unprovable, subjective one.

So, when you undertake to make yourself more intelligent, or more honest, or more scientific, or whatever because you are an Atheist, you are no different than people of any other belief who inflate themselves because they think their beliefs make them better than other people. You just adopt the bad habits of the people you despise, lording your philosophy over other people's.

And you keep, over and over, dodging the real point here: NO ONE BELIEVES IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE ABOVE. Find me a single person, a single organizational Christian doctrine that believes that God either must answer the prayer above or not exist. Never mind the untold numbers of other belief systems that accept the existance of a god besides Christianity.

The main fact about this blog is that it is based upon a lie, which is in turn based upon ignorance. People tend to hate what they don't understand, and I think the experiment listed above shows that Foxjazz doesn't know enough about Christian doctrine to be a judge of it.

Jill,

Yes, an atheist says "there is no God." But also can say, "I lack belief." An agnostic says "I can't be sure there is a God."

If you have a feeling there is one, but still not sure, then I guess you'd be a searching agnostic.

I can't prove to you that God exists either. I can't prove to you that God exists using the bible, because the bible doesn't attempt to prove that God exists. It just speaks as though he does exist. I see "proof" of his existence all around me, but I'm looking at it from the other side of the forest. All I can do is introduce you to him and you judge for yourself.

I think it is telling that the page linked by foxjazz uses forms of the word "belief" around 100 times, all the while trying to make the point that Atheism is somehow different than other beliefs. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Foxjazz accuses me of toying with the definition of Atheism, but if you look at their explaination of why Atheism isn't a faith, they do the same thing with the word "faith"...

"Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something. According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith. Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is "certain". This is not a general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists."

Their own definitions shift and bob, one minute disavowing belief, and the next using the word to describe Atheism. It's really no different than any religion, tons of different divisions and definitions and in-fighting over what no one can prove.

NO ONE BELIEVES IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE ABOVE. Find me a single person, a single organizational Christian doctrine that believes that God either must answer the prayer above or not exist. Never mind the untold numbers of other belief systems that accept the existance of a god besides Christianity.

This is true.

If it isn't there, it can't be forced. KFC, you are compelled to have faith in christianity. I am compelled to have faith in God (meaning a creator). Some people just don't have a 'feeling' at all regarding God.

I agree. I'll re-phrase..."Why don't you think you believe?"

Love is a good comparison. We know love exists but again, how do we prove it? A person cannot understand what falling in love feels like until they fall in love themselves. That's what it's like when you find God. You know He's real, but it's hard to explain him to someone who hasn't had an encounter with Him. It's hard to explain what Love is until you've been there.

And God is love.

Jill, Yes, an atheist says "there is no God." But also can say, "I lack belief." An agnostic says "I can't be sure there is a God." If you have a feeling there is one, but still not sure, then I guess you'd be a searching agnostic.

Actually I am a Deist. Agnostics have no belief in God. They simply state that God can neither be proven nor disproven.

All I can do is introduce you to him and you judge for yourself.

But you can't introduce me to him KFC. God has to introduce himself.