This is my blog.
What atheists ought to stand for
Published on February 19, 2006 By Foxjazz In Religion
These opins are my own:
Written by Richard Carrier

It is probably true that almost all atheists stand for the values of reason and freethought. I will attempt to put these values in more substantial terms. There is the belief that inquiry and doubt are essential checks against deception, self deception, and error. There is the belief that logic and proper empirical method is the only way the whole world can arrive at an agreement on the truth about anything. And there is the belief that it is better to be good to each other and to build on what we all agree to be true, than to insist that we all think alike. The words I have put in bold above are the very things I believe all atheists should stand for.

First is the belief that "inquiry and doubt are essential checks against deception, self-deception, and error." Even religionists will sometimes give this value lip service, but very often they do not abide by it. And insofar as anyone cherishes this value but does not live up to it, they are living immorally even according to their own value system. I cannot count the number of times I have heard Christians declare this value as a reason to read the Bible, yet blithely ignore it when I ask them to read the Tao Te Ching. We must accept that we are vulnerable to error in any matter in which we lack all doubt or have not led a meaningful inquiry. The honest atheist will regard willful ignorance and blind faith as the more dangerous of sins.

Contrary to theological polemic, it is not absurd to say that you stand for doubt. You should be open to falsifying evidence for any belief you hold, and you should commit to the rule that you will sway your opinion by the preponderance of evidence, and not by the preponderance of faith, tradition, or desire. Even when your faith in some belief is unusually strong, caution is in order. Rather than reject opposing evidence, and rather than give an unjustified weight to confirming evidence, if you know the facts might be incorrect or incomplete, then you should make a solid inquiry into those facts. You should admit your uncertainty, and accept that the preponderance of evidence must always decide, and only careful inquiry will resolve the matter. All of science has been driven by this principle. It has never been enough for a scientist to have faith in a theory. Rather than employ that faith as justification for belief, the scientist employs it as justification for inquiry. Belief is not declared, one way or the other, until some respectable measure of inquiry has been completed. This is why science makes progress and religion does not. I believe this is more than a method shared by science, history, journalism, and forensic law. This is the way one ought to behave, and I think most atheists would agree.

Next is the belief that "logic and proper empirical method is the only way the whole world can arrive at an agreement on the truth about anything" and that "it is better to be good to each other and to build on what we all agree to be true, than to insist that we all think alike." These are related truths, which atheists are well-suited to accept and adopt, for both are generally rejected by believers in god. It is hard to dispute the fact that almost all atheists stand for science and reason, for high standards of empirical inquiry and rational thought. They believe in perfecting their grasp of scientific discoveries as well as scientific methods, and in honing their ability to apply reason and critical, empirical thought to every field of endeavor, even their daily lives. All the hours and years that theists apply themselves to prayer and devotion and the perusal of scripture, atheists apply themselves to the study of the universe, to the refinement of their understanding of things, and to their mastery of clear and successful thinking and questioning.

It is beyond dispute that whenever there is any outstanding disagreement about any matter of fact, which is not resolved when everyone looks and observes the same things, then the methods of science and logic must be brought to bear to decide the question. For apart from plain observation--if even after that no one agrees on what they are seeing or what it signifies--then science and logic are the only methods we know that can reveal to everyone the same decisive evidence. If ordinary observation fails to secure agreement, and neither science nor logic nor any equivalent standards of empirical inquiry can be applied to a question, then both sides of the dispute must honestly admit their mutual ignorance. For it is dishonest to maintain that someone is wrong when you have nothing at hand to prove it, and logical and empirical methods provide the only known ways to prove anything to everyone (leaving aside, of course, the lunatics and the irrational, who reject all sound reason and principles of evidence). The humility to admit your own ignorance, and the wisdom to not assume too much, are virtues that atheists should not forget to hold dear--even as they always seek to end their ignorance and go beyond their assumptions, with constant questioning and investigation. And this will affect how we treat our fellow humans, because it leads us to the conclusion that it is better to preach the gospel of 'be good to others even when you disagree with them', than to preach the gospel of 'believe in our religion or be damned'. The former brings only peace, life, and happiness, and teaches us the value of respect and negotiation, but the latter brings only division, death, and misery, and teaches only tyranny and hatred.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 20, 2006
'excuse me! this article does not spring from Reconcilliation. It springs from a totally different source.'

But I'm not going to tell you what it is ...

Bakerstreet is right; apart from quoting somebody else in the initial post, this is the same ill-conceived and half-baked nonsense Foxjazz was spouting on his 'Reconcilliation' (sic) thread. He lost the argument there, so he gave up on that thread and is continuing to promote his uninspired dogma (and yes, I use that word deliberately) here instead. Be aware people, as many have already discovered above, when it comes to entertaining alternative perspectives, he is a closed book. Who the hell is he to dictate 'what atheists ought to stand for'?

I will not be contributing beyond this one post, for two reasons.
1. Foxjazz is as doctrinaire, intolerant and elitist in defense of his beliefs as any religious group you care to name.
2. As revealed by the quote above, he's a big fibber. Just read 'Reconcilliation' for yourselves if you have any doubt.
on May 28, 2006
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on Jun 06, 2006
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on Jun 07, 2006
Foxjazz is proof that God does indeed play dice - and that He occasionally craps out.
on Jun 08, 2006
I'd say maybe. Perhaps the "faith," is in logic, sound reasoning, etc...? *shrugs* Maybe, though, I'm not atheist so I have little experience there.

~L
on Feb 01, 2009

Faith is defined as a belief in things without evidence.

It's an oxymoron to have faith in science. It's more grammatically correct to say "I believe" in science. 

I believe in science because of the evidence.

I disbelieve in God or gods because of the lack of evidence.

It's really that simple.

on Feb 01, 2009

Wow, most of the people commenting on this old post are looooong gone now!

on Feb 01, 2009

Yea long dead and gone I am sure. So what.

on Feb 01, 2009

So what.

Just an observation. No need to get all pissy.

on Feb 18, 2009

I don't 'believe' there is not god, I know it.

No 'faith' involved.

 

on Feb 18, 2009

If there is a creator entity, it is not any "god" mentioned in any human religion. Those can be disproved via their own holy books. Using the inconsistencies and absurdities as proof that those religions are false.

As for there being a general creator entity, it is extremely unlike and there has never been any evidence of its existance.

on Feb 18, 2009

Draginol


I tend to think of atheism as a type of religion.
There is no evidence to imply that there is no God.  There is also no evidence IMO to imply there is a God.  We simply don't know.
So most people choose to have faith that there's something (Some sort of God at the very least) and a few people take the opposite route.
I don't have faith in either.  I simply have no idea if there's a God or not.
I'm not an atheist. I don't know either way. I don't proclaim there is no god.

Well, I guess that depends on your definition of atheist.  

I would personally consider myself an atheist and an agnostic, I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.  I consider myself an atheist because I don't believe in God.  Note, that is not the same as me saying that I believe there is no God.  Well, there are those that use the terms weak atheist and strong atheist, where the weak atheist simply lacks belief in a god and the strong one believes in no god.  Note, one lacks a belief in something, the other affirms a belief in the negative, and I think they are different.

Now, I view myself as an agnostic, because if someone asked me the question as to whether or not there is a God, I would respond with "I don't know."  Note, that this is a different question again to "Do you believe in God?"  Well, I don't actually believe in God, (thus making me an atheist, at least a "weak" one), but I don't know if God exists.

To summarize, I don't see a reason to believe that God exists, but I also don't see a reason to believe that God does not exist.  At the same time, I simply don't know if God exists.  Again, that's not the same as not knowing whether I believe in God, as I just stated, I don't see a reason to believe in God. 

on Feb 18, 2009

Good answer ReuelKB.

Although, agnostic incorrectly suggests that you give equal validity to the concept of god existing and not existing. Thats why some say "teapot agnostics" (mars could be a giant teapot... which is as likely as god existing) or toothfairy agnostic (the toothfairy could be real, just like god could, but they are as equally unlikely.)

on Feb 18, 2009

taltamir


Good answer ReuelKB.
Although, agnostic incorrectly suggests that you give equal validity to the concept of god existing and not existing. Thats why some say "teapot agnostics" (mars could be a giant teapot... which is as likely as god existing) or toothfairy agnostic (the toothfairy could be real, just like god could, but they are as equally unlikely.)

Now you've got me thinking.

Part of the problem has to do with the vague definition of God.  Another problem, is, that by most definitions, if God does exist, its domain is probably outside the universe, which is a domain we, almost by definition, know nothing about.  The teapot though, this is something we know a lot more about.

Let's think about the teapot.  First off, we have data regarding Mars, and we can conclude with a very high degree of probability, that Mars is not a teapot.  Now, what about there being some random teapot floating in space?  We actually do have some information to help us estimate the probability of that happening.

First, we have to ask, if there is a teapot floating in space, why is it floating in space (btw, not talking about a teapot on Earth floating in space).  Well, a few scenarios could be that it spontaneously appeared or formed, or that perhaps some alien species made teapots and flew in a ship, and a teapot was ejected, thus making it float in space.  Now I'm sure that there are those who can use quantum mechanics to estimate the likelihood of some teapot spontaneously forming in space, and it's likely very low.  We also need to be precise about the definition of a teapot, perhaps study why it was made by humans and predict whether any kind of intelligent race would make a teapot.  There will probably be a bit of a margin of error, but we can attempt to estimate this. 

The size of the universe will also have an effect.  If the universe is truly, truly infinite, then the odds of a teapot floating is likely to be around 1.  Now, if we are just talking about the solar system, well, the odds are probably zero, because that is simply too small of a domain.

Now, regarding God, specific properties of this God could probably be given a near zero probability, but I think regarding whether a God can exist in a domain outside of our universe, the odds of that are 50/50.  Whether this God wants you to do this or that, well, probably zero, since I can bring up an infinite number of other theoretical Gods that do something else that mutually excludes what the other God does.  

Now, if this God simply exists in a domain that we aren't able to access, then it's a non-issue for me, as it doesn't effect me.  However, if this God in any way inteferes with our universe, then some how, it's able to produce outputs into this universe and (unless its actions are totally random) it somehow receives input from this unvierse.  This would put it in the same system (if there is more to the system we reside in, than just this particular universe) as us, which we then can in theory investigate this being. 

There have already been some small scale tests in this area, such as that one that tried to determine whether prayer had any kind of statistically significan effect.  Now, larger scale tests are probably not practical, but if you could in theory monitor every particle on Earth, you could see whether there are any statistical anomalies in the action of these particles, but if these were absent, at least we can, with a high degree of probability say that God is not interfering directly in the affairs of Earth.

Of course, perhaps God can bypass this, by indirectly affecting Earth by introducing some kind of input from outside Earth, but I don't know how large of an effect such things would have in altering what would have happend otherwise, especially if you want to acheive a precise effect.  I don't know, do you think that God could alter certain rays of the Sun so that they hit Earth in precisely the way they need to in order to acheive a specific outcome?  I suspect not, but I'm not sure.

on Feb 18, 2009

Ah, the ultimate question. What is the definition of the word god, and would such a being want something from us...

I do not concern myself with trying to proove or disproove a creator being.

I instead concern myself with specific religions, I can, via historical evidence, as well as examination of their tenants and contradictions, disprove specific manuscripts (the bible, the torah, dianetics) and thus the religions that use them as a base. But that does not mean there is no God outside of our domain, one which is not concerned with us. . But if so, would you justly call it GOD instead of "an alien sapient"

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