Ummmmmmm... I wuz here.

*laughs*

I think both sides have their share of arrogance and humility.

The only place I really see arrogance is when we try to go from "I am Right" to "So you must be wrong".

Based on my life's experience, I can honestly and unabashedly say that I know there is a God, I know that Jesus Christ is my Savior.

Now, nothing in my life's experiences can prove any of that to anyone else. I can be an example. I can teach what I know, but in the end, it isn't my example or teaching that will bring anyone to the same knowledge I have. So, while I can say "I am right", it gives me no authority, license or justification to add, "so you are wrong".

How arrogant are we when we admit that we can't prove one another wrong, but insist on boring other people by making a point of telling them how wrong they are.

I agree both are equally culpable in the arrogance department. Frankly, I am one of the most arrogant individuals on the planet. But I've seen several worthy adversaries, who ironically consider themselves humble.

I don't think holding a theistic or an atheistic position automatically confers arrogance or humility on anyone. Both positions can be held with all measures of each character trait.

The problem is when we enter discussions. In debate, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one levelling the allegations. If I claim God exists, and wish to defend that, the burden of proof is on me (if I choose not to engage, it is a nonissue). If you, however, claim that God does NOT exist, the burden of proof is on you (similarly, if you choose not to engage, it is a nonissue).

When most think of arrogant atheists, it is because they see atheists who claim to have disproven God's existence, when thay have, in fact, met no higher standard of proof than those who claim to have PROVEN God's existence. Ultimately, it is a matter of faith for each.

Sorry for rambling, but I hope you get my point. Good topic for discussion.

Little_w, that is true arrogance (wink)...

Personally I think any atheists that states " I can prove God doesn't exist" is truely arrogant, and not only that dishonest. I have really never encountered an atheist that can say that as a matter of factly, especially those critical thinker athests I am so fond of.

I don't think Arrogance is defined by I am right/you are wrong. Being as humble and kind as I can, I can certainly say if you believe in God, you probably believe in the wrong one.
It is arrogant to think your right, without evidence backup up your claim. Humility is being real, and not proclaiming something that may or may not be true.

Thomas Paine wrote:
All the other parts of the New Testament, except the book of enigmas, called the Revelations, are a collection of letters under the name of epistles; and the forgery of letters has been such a common practice in the world, that the probability is at least equal, whether they are genuine or forged. One thing, however, is much less equivocal, which is, that out of the matters contained in those books, together with the assistance of some old stories, the church has set up a system of religion very contradictory to the character of the person whose name it bears. It has set up a religion of pomp and of revenue in pretended imitation of a person whose life was humility and poverty.

I am simultaneously a mere speck of dust in the continuum of space and time, yet able to stretch the same like taffy in my hands. What does that make me?

That’s a good point little whip. Through the eyes of the world, we are mere specks of dust in a vast, blindly indifferent universe. But through the eyes of Spirit, we are spiritual beings, eternally secure, with a priceless heritage. I don’t think this is arrogance. It’s just the way it is, through awakened eyes. If you were a Prince, and your father was a King, then I don't think it would be arrogant to admit that you have a priceless heritage, and that you are loaded with wealth. You would be saying what is so. Yet we’re all in the same position as the Prince. Most people just don’t know it yet. Spiritually speaking, we’re all millionaires, and God’s divine heritage and Heavenly Estate is ours for the taking, whether we think we deserve it or not.

During our time on earth, a piece of Heaven's riches is seated within our heart. As Jesus said, “The Kingdom of God is within you.” There is a great Eastern tale about a beggar, who had been sitting by the side of a road for over thirty years. One day a stranger walked by. “Spare some change?” mumbled the beggar, holding out his old baseball cap. “I have nothing to give you”, said the stranger. Then he asked, “What that you are sitting on?” “Just an old box,” replied the beggar. “I have been sitting on it for as long as I can remember.” “Have you ever looked inside?” asked the stranger. “No,” said the beggar. “There’s nothing in there. It’s just an old box.” “Have a look inside,” insisted the stranger. The beggar stood up, and managed to pry open the lid. With astonishment, disbelief, and elation, he saw that the box was filled with gold.”

In truth, we are the beggars, and we are invited to look inside. Not inside an old box, as in the parable, but somewhere even closer: inside our heart. “For your heart will always be where your riches are”, said Jesus, (Matthew 6.21.)

Consider the following words from Neale Donald Walsch. I think this is great, and it shows the difference between the views of the world and the views of the Spirit.

“If you knew who you are - that you are the most magnificent, the most remarkable, the most splendid being God has ever created – you would never fear. For who could reject such wondrous magnificence? Not even God could find fault in such a being.

". . . You have been told about the survival of the fittest and the victory of the strongest and the success of the cleverest. Precious little is said about the glory of the most loving. And so you strive to be the fittest, the strongest, the cleverest – in one way or another – and if you see yourself as something less than this in any situation, you fear loss, for you have been told that to be less is to lose. Yet I teach you this: When you choose the action love sponsors, then will you do more than survive, then will you do more than win, then will you do more than succeed. Then will you experience the full glory of who you really are, and who you can be. To do this you must turn aside the teachings of your well-meaning, but misinformed, worldly tutors, and hear the teachings of those whose wisdom comes from another Source.”

"I am Baaack"

"Chuckey, is that you?"

"Well of course its me you dope."

"Oh, ok, good. I thought it was like God or something."

That still doesn't change the fact that the more significant you think you are with respect to the universe, the more arrogant you actually are in the universe.

How will you know that I am somebody if I don't tell you?

Is this not the attitude of majority of the people?

I also find that it is easier to point out arrogance in others than it is to admit my own.

AD

"That still doesn't change the fact that the more significant you think you are with respect to the universe, the more arrogant you actually are in the universe."

Then who would be more arrogant than someone that believes that they know that in all the universe, in all of eternity, there has never been a God? It is easy to accept the possiblity of something existing, but in order to dismiss the existence of something you have to be privy to everything, everywhere.

You can say that you believe that there is no such thing as Bigfoot, but in order to do so you are putting your faith in the data you have and the reason you use to process it. Your premise could be foiled with the introduction of new data at any time. Since you don't have all possible data from all possible times, what you are doing is *believing* that there is no Bigfoot, based upon your subjective experience.

So, in the end, the atheist believes, and the religious person believes. The difference is the religious person has a culture of belief and thousands of years of philosphical thought to rest his beliefs on. The Atheist rests his belief on the fact that he has seen enough of the universe and has is smart enough to conclude from his data that there is no possible way that God could exist.

Who is it that is arrogant again? The person who believes because of what he imagines might be possible, or the ant crawling around a small planet who believes his brain and senses are enough to dismiss the possibility of something universally?

It may be easier to point out arrogance in others, "because you've been there before" or whatever reason. However I acknowledge my arrogance, and eagerly admit my wrongness, then move on, press on. Learn from mistakes and go on with life.

I used to be a believer, and was arrogant because of it. I was so arrogant I bragged about my service to God.

Well, I learned from those mistakes, and have moved on to better living.

Fox